The following are some points raised by a friend recently on the doctrine of the Trinity, and my replies to them:
(1)
Jesus is submissive to the Father. But only in humanity sense, but not divine sense. He is submissive to the father until the end, but only in humanity sense.
My reply:
Regarding the first point that Jesus was submissive to the Father "only in the human sense, but not in the divine sense" I'd like to point out that this is not taught in the NT.
Instead the NT teaches us that the Son of God learned obedience from his sufferings and that he became the source of eternal salvation to those who obey him only after he has been made perfect. (Heb.5:8,9).
Similarly, Phil. 2:8,9 teaches that God exalted him and bestowed on him the name above every name because he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death on the cross.
Words like "learned obedience", "made perfect" clearly shows that the Son of God is not God himself.
Likewise the fact that God "exalted" and "bestowed on" him a name above all names again clearly tells us that our God is also the God of our Lord Jesus Christ. There are at least four instances in the NT where the apostle referred to God as the God of our Lord Jesus Christ - 2Cor 1:3, Eph. 1:3, Col. 1:3, 1 Pet. 1:3 etc
In fact if you browse through the Pauline epistles you will find that the apostle Paul has in many places worshipped, praised, given thanks and prayed to God alone and never to the Lord Jesus. For a more detailed list please visit:
http://thefishermanspage.blogspot.com/2010/03/thanksgiving-prayer-and-praise-in.html
After Jesus was raised by God, he said to his disciples in John 20:17,
"I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."
As such, the only sense in which we should understand the submission of the Lord Jesus Christ to God our Father is the sense of a man submitting to God. Any other sense is a distortion of the truth.
(2)
But the YeHoVaH=triune God himself according to trinity, when u said God raised Jesus up, trinitirian might think the God is refer to the triune God, not the father...and the preacher said that God cant shows us love if he is not 3 persons in one, which is relational ( involved that kind of relationship in order to show love)
My reply:
Interesting reasoning. If Jesus were part of the 3-in-1 God, it will be very hard to understand why the apostles repeatedly asserted that GOD raised Jesus from the dead, instead of just "God The Father" raised "God the Son" from the dead.
I read somewhere that there are 27 or more scriptures in eight NT books that say that God raised Christ from the dead. Haven't checked it out yet, but I know of a few, as follows:
This Jesus has God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. (Acts 2:32)
Paul, an apostle-not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father, who raised him from the dead. (Gal. 1:1)
Let it be known to all of you and to all the people of Israel that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead—by him this man is standing before you well.(Acts 4:10)
But God raised him from the dead, (Acts 13:30)
Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. (Romans 7:4)
because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. (Colossians 2:12)
who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God. (1 Peter 1:21)
We can conclude that our Lord Jesus had no power to raise himself from the dead. He had to be raised by God, the same God called YHVH, the same God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
The same God whom our Lord Jesus affirmed when he recited the Shema:Hear O Israel, YHVH our God, YHVH is one. Deut 6:4 / Mark 12:29
God cannot die. The whole idea that God raised himself from the dead is absurd.
(3)
3a. i don't see what is the BIG problem of Paul addressed distinctly between God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. This in fact, is Paul's assertion of the two persons of the Trinity. I am glad he did, because he distinctly differentiated the two roles of God the Father and Lord Jesus Christ (for example, the Father did not die on the cross for our sins, the Son did).
3b.Thanks, I found something interesting
Psa 2:7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD(YWHW): He said to Me(Jesus), 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You. ... YeHoVaH is the Father of Jesus... which the speaker denied by saying YeHoVaH is the Triune God....
My reply:
Amen. Psalm 2:7 indeed teaches us that YHVH is the Father. It is a prophecy written in the voice of the first person singular pronoun "me" - the Son of YHVH.
The fact that God is the Father and the Father is God is explicitly mentioned all over the NT, is beyond all doubt and I've cited some NT references in my previous comment.
What is less well-known among Christians, and even among Jewish people, is that the OT also refers to God, YHVH, as THE Father. e.g.
Isiah 64:8
But now, O YHVH, you are our Father; we are the clay, and you are our potter; we are all the work of your hand.
Isaiah 63:16
For you are our Father, though Abraham does not know us, and Israel does not acknowledge us; you, O YHVH, are our Father, our Redeemer from of old is your name.
Deut. 32:6
Do you thus repay YHVH, you foolish and senseless people? Is not he your father, who created you, who made you and established you?
This is the BIG problem for believers in the trinity - who believe "God the Father" as one of the 3-in-1 instead of believing the fact so explicitly stated in both OT and NT, the truth that God IS the Father.
Our Lord Jesus said, beyond all doubt, when he prayed to the Father in John 17:3 - "And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent."
Let us love the explicit assertions that has been so clearly written down in scripture instead of dabbling with implicit allusions which have deluded so many generations of Christians.
May I add: If we turn to John chapter 8, we find that,
(1) The Father sent Jesus, and the Father was with him (v. 16, 29).
(2) Subsequently, in verse 42 - Jesus said more succinctly, that God sent him.
Thus, it is clear that when Jesus referred to his Father, he was referring to the Only true God, YeHoVaH Almighty: his God and our God (see John 17:3, 20:17).
(3) Jesus told only what he heard from the Father, who sent him (v.26, 38, 40).
(4) He always did what pleased the Father (v.29).
(5) Note especially verse 40, Jesus told the truth that he heard from God.
Here, again, we can see without doubt that God is the Father.
(4)
thank you for highlighting Psalm 2:7.
The writer of Hebrews 1 also quoted Psalm 2:7 in verse 5:
5For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father"? Or again, “I will be his Father, and he will be my Son”?
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God’s angels worship him.”
7In speaking of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, his servants flames of fire.”
8But about the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom."
Look carefully at verse 8: about the Son..., "Your throne, O God...." - which means the Son is God.
And who is saying that? who is the "He" in verse 8? God the Father!
God the Father is saying to God the Son.
My reply:
I'd like to point out that Hebrews 1:8, a quotation of Psalm 45:6,7 can be also be translated as "God is your throne forever . . ." . For example, please see the footnote for this verse in the TEV, and also the NEB.
Furthermore, in the next verse Heb. 1:9, we can read that. "You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."
cf Psalm 45:6,7 - "you have loved righteousness and hated wickedness. Therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of gladness beyond your companions;" (ESV)
Our God is also the God of our Messiah. It is God who anointed his firstborn son, our Lord Jesus, with the oil of gladness, to be our eternal King.
There is no such thing as "God the Son" in the new testament. Instead there is only One True God, YHVH, our Father, and Jesus, the Christ, the only begotten Son of God.
Concluding remarks:
I pray that we all will hold fast to the truth that we can see so clearly in the scriptures - that there is no such thing as "God the Son" nor "God the Holy Spirit", but only God, our Father, our Only True God who raised Jesus, our Messiah from the dead and gave him a name above all other names.
Let us remember that as we wait for the end, our Lord Jesus will reign until God has put all enemies under Jesus' feet in fulfillment of Psalm 8:6, cf 1 Cor. 15:27
"You have given him dominion over the works of your hands; you have put all things under his feet,"
(Reference: 1 Cor. 15:20-28)
After the Son of God has destroyed all rule, authority and power, he will deliver the kingdom to God and he will be subjected to God, so that "God may be all in all" 1 Cor. 15:24, 28
